“Seth material” search engine (Jane Roberts)

(10:05.) As I said, there are all ranges of suffering, and I am beginning this discussion, which I will continue now and then in between regular book dictation, in a very general manner. In times past in particular, though the custom is not dead, men purged themselves, wore ashes and beat themselves with chains, or went hungry or otherwise deprived themselves. They suffered, in other words, for religion’s sake. It was not just that they believed suffering was good for the soul—a statement which can or cannot be true, incidentally, and I will go into that later—but they understood something else: The body will only take so much suffering when it releases consciousness. So they hoped to achieve religious ecstasy.

(Long pause.) Discipline is a form of applied suffering, as discipline is usually used. People are not taught to understand the great dimensions of their own capacity for experience. It is natural for a child to be curious about suffering, to want to know what it is, to see it—and by doing so he (or she) learns to avoid the suffering he does not want, to help others avoid suffering that they do not want, and to understand, more importantly, the gradations of emotion and sensation that are his heritage. [As an adult] he will not inflict pain upon others if he understands this, for he will allow himself to feel the validity of his own emotions.

Religious ecstasy does not need physical suffering as a stimulus, and such a means in the overall (underlined) will work against religious understanding. Those episodes, however, represent one of the ways in which man can actively seek suffering as a means to another end, and it is beside the point to say that such activity is not natural, since it exists within nature’s framework.

Give us a moment…. That will be it for the evening. My heartiest regards to each of you. I have but one more point to make: Each person’s experience of a painful nature is also registered on the part of what we will call the world’s mind. Each, say, failure, or disappointment, or unresolved problem that results in suffering, becomes a part of the world’s experience: This way or that way does not work, or this way or that way has been tried, with poor results. So in that way even weaknesses or failures of suffering are resolved, or rather redeemed as adjustments are made in the light of those data.

There are as many kinds of suffering as there are kinds of joy, and there is no one simple answer that can be given. [...] You are born into belief systems as you are born into physical centuries, and part of the entire picture is the freedom of interpreting the experiences of life in multitudinous fashions (all intently). The meaning, nature, dignity or shame of suffering will be interpreted according to your systems of belief. I hope to give you along the way a picture of reality that puts suffering in its proper perspective, but it is a most difficult subject to cover because it touches most deeply upon your hopes for yourselves and for mankind, and your fears for yourselves and for mankind.

Illness was suffered, was sent by God to purge the soul, to cleanse the body, to punish the sinner, or simply to teach man his place by keeping him from the sins of pride. Suffering sent by God was considered a fact of life, then, and a religious truth as well.

[...] It would be impossible to discuss human suffering without taking that into consideration. [...] The church’s concepts at least gave suffering a kind of dignity: It did (underlined) come from God—an unwelcome gift, perhaps—but after all it was punishment handed out from a firm father for a child’s own good.

[...] Thoughts of death and suffering are among those. In a species geared above all to the survival of the fittest, and the competition among species, then any touch of suffering or pain, or thoughts of death, become dishonorable, biologically shameful, cowardly, nearly insane. [...]

[...] Religion holds some ideas that are in complete opposition to each other in regard to the nature of suffering in general. Some believe that suffering is a punishment sent by God for past or present sins, or even omissions, while other religious schools insist that suffering is sent by God as evidence of his particular love for the individual involved: “God must love you very much, because he sent you so much suffering.” [...]

[...] The idea is supposed to be that suffering is good for the soul, is a way of atoning for one’s sins, and in some fashion the implication is made that such suffering in this life will be more than compensated for in heaven.

Instead, it should be realized that as uncomfortable as suffering is, it does somehow have a meaning in the context of your entire existence — again, that it was not thrust upon you by some unjust or uncaring exterior force or nature.

To some degree, that kind of understanding can help alleviate suffering itself to some extent. [...]

The subject matter of suffering is certainly vitally connected to the subject at hand, but basically speaking, disease and suffering are not necessarily connected. Suffering and death are not necessarily connected either. The sensations of suffering, and the pain, do exist. [...]

We want to discuss “disease” as it exists apart from suffering for now, then. Then we will discuss pain and suffering and their implications. I do want to mention, however, that pain and suffering are also obviously vital, living sensations — and therefore are a part of the body’s repertoire of possible feelings and sensual experience. [...]

Illness and suffering are the results of the misdirection of creative energy. [...] Suffering is not good for the soul, unless it teaches you how to stop suffering. [...]

[...] Number twenty-one: How do you account for the pain and suffering in the world?” Many people have asked us this question.)

(9:48.) Illness and suffering are not thrust upon you by God, or by All That Is, or by an outside agency. [...]

There are many differences between the ideas of nirvana and heaven, but each has been used not only to justify suffering, but also to teach people to seek pain. [...]

The ideas of penance, fasting to excess, the personal abuse of the body, such as self-flagellation — all of those practices are conducted in the belief that suffering is something to be sought in itself. [...]

Quite ordinary people often believe, then, that suffering itself is a way toward personal development and spiritual knowledge. [...]

Any physician of any kind can only help a sufferer mobilize these energies and direct them. A sufferer has adopted an illness into his own self-image, through suggestion, which to a large degree he himself has given. [...]

[...] It will in all cases depend upon the belief on the part of the sufferer that he can be cured. [...]

[...] We have indeed spoken much concerning the focus of energy, and a sufferer is truly entranced with the idea of his illness, and it is only this which basically allows the illness to continue. [...]

[...] The sufferer focuses upon the illness, therefore avoiding his task of functioning upon the problem.

(Long pause.) Suffering is a human condition that is sought for various reasons. There are gradations of suffering, of course, and each person will have his or her definitions of what suffering is. Many people do indeed equate a certain kind of suffering with excitement. Sportsmen, race-car drivers, mountain climbers—all seek suffering to one extent or another, and find the very intensity of certain kinds (underlined) of pain pleasurable. [...]

Now I have often said that suffering of itself is not “good for the soul.” It is not a virtue, yet certainly many individuals seem to seek suffering. Suffering cannot be dismissed from human experience as a freak matter of distorted emotions or beliefs.

[...] In still another life, the individual might have a dear friend who suffers from the same disease. [...]

No one is fated, however, to suffer in one life for any crimes committed in another. [...]

People in such societies often suffer from malnourishment, frequent beatings, an excessive use of the enema, and often indulge in physical punishment. [...] Members of such organizations often suffer maladies in which their bodies do not utilize nutrients. [...]

[...] Undue stress is laid upon youthful beauty and youthful achievement, so that it appears that all of the rest of life’s activities must suffer by contrast.

In the framework of the Sinful Self’s points of reference and in the Catholic philosophy in which it is based, suffering for a good purpose, toward a good end, toward a good goal for the sake of the soul, is a virtue. [...] Its discipline through suffering is one of Christianity’s most appalling effects. [...]

[...] I wanted to know how suffering could be good for the soul, among other questions, since from its supposedly exalted position one would hardly think the soul needed suffering to improve its position or understanding. [...]

[...] Like so many others they believe that self-expression is dangerous, evil, and bound to lead to suffering — self-inflicted or otherwise.

(Long pause at 4:28.) Individuals who suffer from epilepsy are also often perfectionists — trying so hard to be at their best that they end up with a very uneven, jerky physical behavior.

[...] Kubler-Ross’s system is still highly tinged by beliefs in the prominent necessity not just in the existence of suffering, but that it must for all of its stress upon hope (long pause) end up to a large degree in stressing certain aspects of suffering and martyrdom. [...]

(9:13.) Kubler-Ross does not believe as deeply in the existence of evil forces, but is convinced of the importance and necessity of suffering in one way or another as an important means of achieving a good end. [...]

(John Bradley said he was thoroughly convinced that a reorganization would have to take place in his company, that great financial losses were being suffered. [...] John himself has suffered some paper losses in stock values, and is of course concerned.

[...] There will be a definite demand that changes be made because of the financial losses that are being suffered.

This will not happen overnight, but it has already begun; and the forces that are now working toward such a reorganization will suffer, within six months, a seeming downfall from which, however, they will indeed recover.

[...] The head man within the company will suffer a loss of power, although he may retain his title.

[...] You have, for example, the extremes of poverty suffered by people in many other parts of the world — a poverty that stunts all kinds of growth, mental and physical, and brings about an early death. [...] Or those extremes when entire families suffer patterns of tragedy so whole numbers are wiped out at one time.

In many cases, it is the parents of such offspring who suffer more than their children, since it seems as if such families were unjustly saddled with the most unfortunate woes.

It seems unnatural to some people to hear of animals’ mothers who refuse to nurse one offspring, or sometimes even attack it — but in those instances the animal mother is instinctively aware of the situation, and acts to save the offspring from future suffering.

You obviously also suffered, however. [...]

[...] Again, he suffers more from the lack of rich emotional interaction than you; he is less able to take it.

[...] Many would be far more than satisfied with your relationship, but you set yourselves high goals, both in your work and in your personal lifelong relationship with each other, and you suffer when you are not true to this.

(4:21.) They may also suffer with stomach difficulties, many being overly fond of extremely spicy foods. [...]

The woman has strongly resisted the hypnosis sessions, and has suffered relapses rather than suffer the intense psychic and psychological reorganization that would be necessary for any meaningful recovery.

Since you value sexual performance in the most limited of terms, and use that largely as a focus of identity, then both your old and young suffer consequences that are not so much the result of age as of sexual prejudice. [...] They will squeeze their identity into sexual clothes, and the society will suffer because the great creative thrusts of growing intellect and intuitions will be divided at puberty, precisely when they are needed.