“Seth material” search engine (Jane Roberts)

(In the 586th session, earlier in this chapter, Seth stated that by the year 2075 the third Christ — Paul or Saul — would have enacted the Second Coming, exerting of course a profound effect upon religion and world history. Jane thought a period of less than a century was much too short a time to encompass so many dramatic changes. She wanted me to ask Seth if she had distorted this data while delivering it.

(When, for instance, would the personality be born, in order to have time to bring about such tremendous changes? We supposed there was a chance distortion had occurred.

(John the Baptist was born between 8 and 4 B.C., and died in A.D. 26 to 27. Jesus Christ was born between 8 and 5 B.C., and died in A.D. 29 to 30. Paul [Saul] of Tarsus was born between A.D. 5 and 15 and died in A.D. 67 to 68.

(Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, was a cousin of Christ’s mother, Mary. John baptized Christ at the beginning of his ministry in A.D. 26 to 27, when he was about thirty. John was already active in his own ministry, and often called himself a “forerunner of one who would be nobler and stronger.” Shortly after he baptized Jesus, John was imprisoned by Herod Antipas in the fortress Machaerus, near the Dead Sea.

(It isn’t known for sure that Christ and Paul ever met. Paul was converted several years after Christ’s death; before that he had been a zealous persecutor of Christians. Nor does it appear that John and Paul met.

(According to history, all three members of the Christ entity met violent ends. Christ was crucified near Jerusalem at the order of Pontius Pilate; Herod had John beheaded; and Paul was beheaded near Rome during the reign of Nero.

(Readers of The Seth Material had asked Seth to elaborate upon data of the three Christs given in Chapter Eighteen, “The God Concept,” of that book. Some wanted to know if one of the three Christs could have been the Teacher of Righteousness; this personage was the leader of the Zealot sect in Judaea early in the first century A.D. There were four known Jewish sects flourishing there at the birth of Christianity.

(Other questions concerned a variety of names for Christ himself. Jane and I had been saving these, and we went over them now before the session. Jane’s pace as the session opened was quite a bit slower than usual.)

Some carried on following the same pattern taken by Christ, performed psychic feats and healings, had groups of followers, and yet were not capable of holding that powerful focus of psychic attention that was so necessary.

The Lord of Righteousness, so called, was such a person, but his over-zealous nature held him back.

(In the literature I’ve been reading on the subject, the Zealot leader was always called the Teacher of Righteousness. The interpretation of scanty records, including the Dead Sea Scrolls, has given rise to debate, but it appears he was either Menahem ben Judah, who was killed in A.D. 66 in Jerusalem, or a nephew, who survived and succeeded him.)

His rigidity prevented the spontaneity necessary for any true great religious release. He fell, instead, into the trap of provincialism. Had he performed the role possible, he could have been of benefit to Paul. He was a probable personality of the Paul portion of the Christ entity.

(Long pause at 9:17. Jane’s pace was still quite slow.)

In their dreams they were in contact. Consciously Paul remembered many of these dreams, until he felt pursued by Christ. It was because of a series of recurring dreams that Paul persecuted the Christians. He felt that Christ was a kind of devil who pursued him in his sleep.

On an unconscious level, however, he knew the meaning of the dreams, and his “conversion,” of course, was only a physical event following an inner experience.

John the Baptist, Christ, and Paul were all connected in the dream state, and John was well aware of Christ’s existence before Christ was born.

Paul needed the strongest egotistical strength because of his particular duties. He was far less aware consciously of his role for this reason. The inner knowledge, of course, exploded in the physical conversion experience.

The name given was correct, though it is itself a translation. He died with a small group of men in a cave that he held as a point of refuge in the middle of a battle, killed by members of another sect. The murderers took with them certain manuscripts that they found there; but others they did not find, and these have not as yet come to light.

The final place of refuge was near Damascus. For some time the Lord of Righteousness tried to hide himself within the city. His identity was discovered, however, and he and a band of men took to caves that were between Damascus and another nearby town, much smaller, that had been used at one time as a fortress. They were heading there.

In fact, for a period he led a double life as a member of the Zealots. He turned against them vehemently, however, as he was later to turn against the Romans to join the Christians. Before his conversion, he knew he had a purpose and mission, and flung himself with all the passion of his being into whatever answers he thought he had found.

(I was finding Seth’s information intensely interesting. It was unavoidable in many cases, but Jane said she much preferred not to know anything about the historical period Seth would be discussing. She hadn’t read anything about the Dead Sea Scrolls, for instance, although I’d explained a little about them to her at various times. Nor is she familiar with the Bible.

(Of course, we hadn’t known just how Seth was going to present his material in the chapter on religion on the third Christ and related data. Both of us were surprised to hear him declare a connection between Paul and the Zealots. Many questions automatically came to our minds; but we had to stop somewhere, so we reluctantly decided not to ask them.

(Jane’s attitude about biblical history is in keeping with her feelings about some other facets of her abilities: she has often told me she felt much freer giving a reading for a person when she wasn’t acquainted with him. The same was true when she was trying for the contents of sealed envelopes. She preferred not to know who had prepared them, or their origin, etc.)

(Resume at 10:00. Jane’s voice, as Seth, was a little different from usual. More controlled, perhaps, not quite as jovial or as much at ease.)

In the historical time of Christ, I was a man called Millenius, in Rome. In that life my main occupation was that of a merchant, but I was a highly curious gentleman, and my travels gave me access to many different groups of people.

Physically I was round and stout, not at all patrician in my bearing, and given to untidiness in my dress. We had a type of snuff made from a certain kind of straw. I used it constantly, often spilling some upon my robe.

My house was in the busiest, northwestern part of the city, just beyond what you would call the heart of town. Among my wares I sold bells for donkeys. This may not sound like a very grand product, and yet families on the farms outside of Rome found these highly useful. Each had a special sound, and a family could tell by the sound of the bell their own donkey from innumerable similar ones.

(10:11.) While I was not literate, I was shrewd and lively of mind. Special bells, I discovered, were used by various sects of Jews, both within Rome and without. While I was a Roman and a citizen, my citizenship meant little except for providing me with minimal safety as I went about my daily way, and in my business I encountered as many Jews as Romans. I was not too far above them socially. (This was Seth’s first bit of humor in the chapter.)

— who was, as clearly as I could figure out at the time, a “sacred” assassin. He was drunk the night I spoke to him in a stinking stall outside of Jerusalem. It was he who told me about the symbol of the eye. He also told me that the man, Christ, was kidnapped by the Essenes. I did not believe him. Nor at the time he told me did I know who Christ was.

At the time that Christ lived his existence was known to very few, comparatively speaking. To put it bluntly (and humorously) I knew that someone had the ball, but I was not certain of the person. In dream states, the situation finally became known to me and to many others.

The Christians, generally speaking, did not want Roman converts. I was later one of these, and because of my nationality was never trusted. My part in that drama was simply to acquaint myself with its physical foundation; to be a participant, however small, in that era. Much later in your terms I would end up as a minor pope in the third century, meeting again some of those I had known — and, if you will forgive a humorous note, once more familiar with the sound of bells.

(Seth first referred to his incarnation as a minor Pope in Jane’s ESP class session for May 15, 1971. Some eighteen people were present. The session was recorded, so the quotes that follow are verbatim. Seth was in a high, if somewhat ribald, mood:

(“… for I was a pope in A.D. 300. I was not a very good pope.

(“I had two illegitimate children [class laughter], a mistress that sneaked into my private study, a magician that I kept in case I did not do too well on my own, a housekeeper who was pregnant every year that I had her, and three daughters who joined a nunnery because I would not have them — and I am referred to in barely three paltry lines, for my reign did not last very long.

(“Now: I had a large family — that is, I came from a large family, and I was ambitious, as all intelligent young men of that time were. I did not go for the military, so there was nothing to do but go to the church.

(“For a while I was not in Rome but held my religious call elsewhere. I wrote two Church laws. It should all go to show you that some good ends up from everything. I died of trouble with my stomach because I was such a glutton. My name was not Clement [in answer to a question from a class member] although Clement is a lovely name.

(“I was originally called Protonius. Now give me a moment. The last name is not nearly so clear, and this is not my papal name, but my — if you will forgive the term — common name: Meglemanius, the third. From a small village.

(“Unless I summon the self that I was at that time, the memories for details are not that clear. But as I now recall them, without directly checking on our friend the Pope, who has, you must understand, gone his own way, I am coming as close as I can. We did not have as many guards at that time, but we had many stolen paintings and jewels of great merit. Now some of these jewels, as well as the money, went for expeditions that you do not realize were adopted at the time, having to do with commerce and ships sent to Africa; and this interest had to do with my later life when I was involved with the oregano [as a spice merchant in Denmark, in the 1600’s]. My sniffing goes back for centuries.

(“There were two brothers strongly united in control of Italy at the time. Perhaps I should say two males, one in the higher capacity and the other his chancellor, with whom I was involved as Pope; and I sent armies to the north also.

(“I was very fond of my first mistress, whose name was Maria. And there were no such sane rules as those in which you now sit, and there were no governments as secure in which you could reside as those you now enjoy.

(“I did believe implicitly in the God in which I was brought up, and in that belief. It was only later that I wondered how such a god would choose me for such a position — and then I began to wonder. I had four lives following that of the most adverse circumstances, to make sure that I understood the difference between luxury and poverty, pride and compassion. And there were days in other centuries that I walked the same streets that I had walked as Pope. I touched these streets lightly as Pope; but as a peasant I walked with a heavy foot and great weight, until I learned the lessons that I had to learn, as all of you will also learn your own lessons.”

I did not play the part of any towering personality of historical note, but became experienced in the homey and intimate details of daily life, the normal struggle for achievement, the need for love. I learned the unutterable yearning of father for son, son for father, husband for wife, wife for husband, and fell headlong into the intimate webs of human relationships. Before your idea of history, I was a Lumanian, and was later born in Atlantis.

Using your historical reference, I returned at the time of the cavemen, operating as a Speaker. Now I have always been a Speaker, regardless of my physical occupation. I have been a spice merchant in Denmark, where I knew Ruburt and Joseph. In several lives I was black — once in what is now called Ethiopia, and once in Turkey.

My lives as monks followed my experience as a pope, and in one of these, I was a victim of the Spanish Inquisition. My experience in female lives varied from that of a plain Dutch spinster to a courtesan at the time of the biblical David, to several existences as a humble mother with children.

In a book on reincarnation, I hope to have each of my previous personalities speak for themselves, for they should tell their own story. You should understand, therefore, that those personalities still exist and are independent. While what I am once seemed to be contained within those personalities, I was but the seed for them. In your terms, I can remember who I was; in greater terms, however, those personalities should speak for themselves.

(Jane sat half in trance, “seeing more stuff now than in the session itself.” It was as though a light within her focused upon one small area. She saw grease or wax from a candle, falling upon one of the robes and staining it. In the stall there were long oval bundles of straw, stacked one upon another “to keep it dry, pretty high up to the roof. Each bundle is tied but not covered.”

(Now she smelled something very rancid. “Seth has some kind of soap with his wares — some awful mixture with lye and rosewater,” she said, unbelieving, her nose wrinkling. “This was in some kind of woven sack; a double one like you’d throw over a horse…. I can almost see it in front of me. I could draw the shape of it, though it’s not any big deal.

(Jane was obviously much more relaxed now than when she’d started this chapter. She was yawning deeply, again and again, her eyes watering. I suggested an end to the session, but she wanted to continue. Resume at 11:19.)

In several lives I was consciously aware of my “past existences.” Once as a monk I found myself copying a manuscript that I myself had written in another life.

Often I was given to the love of weight, and possessed it. Twice I died of starvation. I always found my deaths highly educational — in your terms, afterwards. It was always a lesson between lives to trace the thoughts and events that “led to a given demise.”

On a subjective level I acted as a teacher and a Speaker in each of my lives. In a few highly intuitive existences I was aware of this fact. You do not understand as yet the high importance of the underside of consciousness. Beside your objective role in each life, your reincarnational challenges also involve your dream states, rhythms of creativity that flow and ebb beneath the daily world you know. So I became highly proficient in this way as a Speaker and a teacher in several lives that were externally uninteresting by contrast.

My influence, work, and concern in such cases was far more vast than my quiet objective pursuits. I give you this information hoping to help you understand the true nature of your own reality. My reincarnational existences do not define what I am, however, nor do yours define you.

(But now, at 11:40, Jane didn’t know whether to end the session, as I’d suggested earlier, or continue. She finally decided to “just sit quietly for a minute.” Then: “I don’t know whether to shut it down or not — it could go on for another hour….” I told her I was game if she was. Seth resumed at 11:45.)

Now I began by telling you that I was dictating this material through the auspices of a woman of whom I was quite fond. Let me now tell you that there are other realities involved. The following paragraphs will be written by another personality, who stands relatively in the same position to me as I stand to the woman through whom I am now speaking.

(Pause at 11:51. I now watched a transformation begin to take place in Jane, as our familiar Seth retreated and Seth Two began to come to the fore. At the same time I knew that subjectively Jane was experiencing the feeling of a “cone” or “pyramid” coming down over the top of her head. Jane has often told me that whereas she feels Seth come to her in a very warm and alive and friendly manner, she feels her consciousness going out of herself to meet Seth Two — “up the invisible pyramid like a draft up a flue.” She doesn’t know where she goes or how she gets back. Her body seems to be left behind.

(Jane sat very formally in her Kennedy rocker, her forearms upon the arms of the chair, her feet flat upon the rug. lt was a muggy night; our living room windows were open, and now I became conscious of traffic noise. I heard someone moving about in the apartment upstairs.

(Jane’s eyes were closed, but occasionally they opened slightly. She smiled faintly as she spoke for Seth Two. The voice that began to issue from her was very high, very distant and formal, with little volume or emphasis. Each word was carefully and deliberately, almost delicately, spoken. It was as though Seth Two wasn’t familiar with vocal chords or words, and so took pains to use those mechanisms in just the right way. The contrast between the two Seths couldn’t have been more complete.)

Verbal symbols have no meaning for us. Our experience is not translatable. We hope our intent is. In the vast infinite scope of consciousness, all is possible. There is meaning in each thought. We perceive your thoughts as lights. They form patterns. (Each syllable was so carefully and separately pronounced.)

(12:06 A.M. This was the end of the session. As usual when Seth Two speaks, the end was unannounced, and came without any of the warmth and emotional exchange that often involves Seth, Jane, and me.